WAAC: Why I loathe it. Part 2 of ?

Greetings,

It's been a while and I will apologise for this is not meant to be a rant, although again it will end up being so. I know this for a fact.

In my last WAAC post I talked about my first experience of dealing with WAAC players en mass. It wasn't a pleasant experience for myself nor for those who were used to playing to the fluff or for fun.

More recently I have seen people who do WAAC for pick-up games. Normally they don't have a list prepared and then once they have seen the enemy army or list they prepare one to counter it. the writing of the list is normally accompanied by some of the following;

• It's written at the gaming venue.
• It takes about an hour.
• It can't be understood unless you know half a dozen dead languages and have three PhD's in cryptography and having grown up in Bletchley Park*1.
• It is written while they are constantly bitching about their opponent's list.
• They always asking for more points.
• They are always complaining if any restrictions are in place.
• They want to proxy miniatures because of a specific rule they have works amazingly effectively against your army.
• Their armies are often poorly painted.
• They are literally just thrown into or tipped out of a box.
• They look like they have been put together by someone sneezing over the miniature when they have a cold and shoving the rest of the parts at it, hoping that they'd stick.
• Finally they always say 'It's not the best list I can come up with.'

Normally people with lists like this aren't fun to play against. If something goes wrong they blame everything but themselves.

• 'It's not a good list.'
• 'I didn't have enough points.'
• 'I can't win the game unless I kill every model of yours.'
• 'I don't do objectives.' - I swear I was going to kill this guy...
• 'I haven't had time to make a good list.'
• 'Are we using the latest FAQ?' - I nearly DID kill this guy.

Even throughout all of these excuses and attempts to have a good game, I have often felt as if I'd just been in a WAAC tournament. It's not a feeling I like.

I actually have a few lists for each of my armies upon my person when I'm gaming. I can throw together a list in about 15 minutes, no matter the restrictions. As far as my armies for Warhammer go I have Ogres (apparently good in 8th, but one of the weakest in 7th), Bretonnia (see the comment about Ogres) and Lizardmen.

Now Lizardmen were got before the newer Army book came out. They were faring rather poorly on the power scale. Saurus were over-priced. Armies were small and under-powered, unless you went with one of the few internet lists available. Then along came the new army book. Nearly everything got a boost AND they got new shiny things. A horde of Stegadons crashed through the undergrowth, Skinks appeared in even greater numbers and the Slann were insane in the magic phase if upgraded properly. New plastics made them more affordable too.

I played them under the new army book for a bit. I was scared at how many more of the Lizardmen you could fit in an army. For myself I always like to take thematic armies. So I tried the Saurus Horde. Using only models with Saurus on them. I had 3 blocks of Saurus Warriors with spears, a big unit of Cold one cavalry, a Carnosaur Lord and two other Saurus heroes. I ended up just marching up the field and eating an Empire artillery army. I had managed to crush them in four turns. After this game I stopped playing Lizardmen for months. My opponent didn't even manage to destroy a single unit. This wasn't for lack of trying though.

I went back to my Ogres and a few months later picked up Bretonnians. I was going again for a thematic list. All cavalry. Sounded good. The main issue with the Bretonnian cavalry that they can't do anything if they don't break the enemy on the charge. So I bulked up my army with Peasants. Nothing too severe. Just made it more like an actual army. Knights were more or less ALWAYS in the majority. It was always the poor sods in the infantry who outnumbered them 270 to 1. I actually started having a chance at winning a game. The knights died in a multitude of horrible ways, but the Peasants normally survived. Ummm... sorry for rambling...

My main point is that just because it is a pick up game, doesn't mean that you should treat it as a tournament or bitch, whinge and whine if it doesn't happen according to plan.

It's a one off.

Apart from the 'I must win every game,' attitude playing a WAAC at a pick up game is not an occurrence that happens too often. People who do WAAC refuse to play it as a GAME. They, again, treat it as a job and it takes the fun out of it for people who don't do similar.

What I'd like to see is people playing smaller games, or playing under limits as to what they can use. For example in 40K only using 1 HQ and Troops choices without vehicles, special or heavy weapons, for Warhammer having one hero and only using Core choices.

Simple things to make gamers think on how to use their armies effectively without having to resort to an internet list from BOLS, Warseer or Bolter and Chainsword. I know there will always be some people who won't like it, but if some people can start playing outside of their comfort zone they will, hopefully, become a better person to game against for those who don't play as competitively as them.

Regards,

English Pillocket

*1- Bletchley Park was the place in England where the German Enigma machine code, Italian Air and Naval codes, and most of the Japanese Military codes were cracked during WWII. It is now the National Museum of Computing as well as being used half a dozen other roles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bletchley_Park

Miffed with 40K 5th and bits of WFB 7th.... Not chuffed at all...

Greetings,

This is something that I had wished not to have happened, and I do hope that it is only a temporary thing...

I apologise for it being another rant too. I didn't mean for another rant to occur between this and the WAAC rant. Stuff happens. Sorry for the NERD RAGE!

I also have been listening to a number of podcasts recently, Podhammer for one, and I really do see their point of view about 40K being more a game for WAAC players and those who have issues with most of the movement things in WFB 7th. Personally, I've always looked down upon 40K compared to WFB as being less tactically involving. It is only now that it has been this actively pushed to the front of my gaming experience.

I've been having issues with 5th edition. I find it turning into a horribly skewed game of 'rock, paper, tactical nuclear warhead' recently. I do have a few main complaints, of which one of them were partially seen to with the new Tyranid codex, but it is an under-lying game mechanic that is present in two of GW's main systems.

Cookie-Cutter lists

This is possibly my BIGGEST issue with the current game. I'm unsure if this is just the current meta-game or if this is somewhere that GW has come to by accident or design. Either way, I AM NOT A HAPPY BUNNY! Certain builds are just too damned effective that the more bizarre and fluff-worthy lists are untenable and pointless.

Case in point my 12 Crisis suit 1500pts list for my Tau. A huge amount of cash wasted in 5th for something that could work in 4th. Not often, but they were usable. In 5th I can't do anything. The increase of plasma and melta to deal with Mech has left me with 12 single shot kills unless I give them all shields which makes the rest of my army absolutely tiny. I've used it many a time in 4th, but after playing a few games in 5th it left such a bad taste in my mouth that I'm looking at getting rid of it.

Second case in point a Marine gunline is no longer effective. Marines themselves, unless Mech-ed up or in Drop Pods are pointless. What is the point of having more choices than nearly any damn codex out there if there are only 8 or 9 unit builds that will be taken. What the hell happened to the Marines' being the thin adamantium line against the gribbly things? Now they run up and fight like a bunch of Orks, but not as well...

I even thought that going the Blood Angel way would have been better, but it isn't. Their big shiny units are waaaay to expensive and they can still be nuked by the anti-Mech weapons too easily.

I was intending on having armies with no vehicles for my Marines and my Tau. This is partially achievable with Tau, but then I run into the XV8-melta-death situation. But with Marines it is something that you can't get away from. I don't like vehicles. I want armies of infantry fighting over a ruined city-scape or in a jungle. Somewhere that tanks, no matter how sophisticated can't negotiate. Again, the current meta-game doesn't allow for these lists to work.

Really just not impressed that my army composition and tactics therein has been dictated to me before I've even played a game.

Re-Rolls

I LOATHE the re-roll mechanic that GW has going at the moment. You get to re-roll all failed dice rolls. With some of the other games that use GW systems you are limited to what re-rolls you can do.

For example in Warhammer Ancients you only get a re-roll if you are Veterans. This means you can re-roll a single batch of to hit dice per game. ONCE, that's it. You re-roll ALL of them, not just the ones that missed. Now do you think that missing with 50% of your dice is worth the re-roll?

Then you have the system in Blood Bowl where you can only re-roll certain things once. If you want to re-roll a test for dodging you either use your Dodge skill or a Team Re-Roll. but you can only make ONE of these re-rolls a turn. You can't make 2 or more of them. No matter if you have used Dodge over a Team Re-Roll.

Now the Tyranid Codex went a step in the right direction in my mind. Only being able to re-roll ones if you only have a single pair of scything talons, and falling back on the full mechanic if you have two pairs. This is better in my mind for a number of reasons.

• For one it is damned expensive on troops.
• It limits other weaponry options.
• It's not always the best tool for the job.
• Sometimes you just don't need it. Most Tyranids spank people on a 3+ anyway!

Now with some armies this is part of their personality, Dark Elves for example. Fair enough, I understand that, but it gets annoying when they have a unit of 5 guys that rip through most of your army and you can't do anything about it. Especially when they re-roll to hit AND re-roll to wound. It just gets ridiculous.

There seems to be no drawback to this either. Well, yes, people say that you have to spend more points and it only works in close combat. How many games of Warhammer or 40K do you know of where close combat never happens? I can count them on the fingers on my elbow! (I am not, nor ever have been a mutant. This was a sarcastic comment.)

If you HAD to re-roll ALL of your dice for getting the re-roll benefit I'd be happy. Or if it was limited to re-rolling just ones. Hopefully WFB 8th will have sorted it out better to remove the issues that are prevalent in the current run of games.

Reserves

Right, now this will annoy a lot of people. I really don't like all of the reserve options that can be used at the moment in 40K.

Reserves should be a small part of your force, not ALL of the damned thing!

Now winning the roll to go first is actually a dis-advantage. There are also no battlelines that are formed as both sides on occasions can hold all units off the board and then come in much later on. Sorry if this is a bit of my naivete showing through, but I thought that this was meant to be a GAME? Some thing that was meant to be fun. Even playing 40K against supposedly like-minded players has soured my opinion of the game. What happened to trying to hide your force and using terrain to weather the opening salvoes?

People are to afraid of standing up and allowing the game to happen in a spirit of fun. WAAC strikes again, I know. Really #$%%@% me off though. Now that it is tactically beneficial and there isn't a damned thing I can do to stop it from being used! I liked the fact that in 4th that it could only happen on a 3+ I think... Same with infiltrate. They weren't overly-used tactics and they were good in that regard. If they happened you weren't too fussed as they could only come on from one direction. NOW you have Outflank (something that I like in principle, but it's execution leaves a lot to be desired) that can throw a spanner in the works as well as deep-striking which means some armies need not even bother setting up. What is the point of actually deploying armies until turn 5 then?

I apologise for the NERD RAGE!

Mech

I apologise for again bringing up things from the WAAC rant. This also goes hand-in-hand with the Cookie-Cutter lists, so I'll not say anything about it. But RRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!

*ahem*

Ripple Fire

This is one of the things that really bugs me about 40K. All shooting should be simultaneous. The units can't coordinate their fire patterns to deal with everything at the same time. I declare what is shooting where at the start of my shooting phase. I've mentioned this in the WAAC post so again, I'll leave it be this time.

It just frustrates me that people can use the precise amount of force to every situation no matter what the army is. Even Orks and Tyranids can do this, which for the more bestial and undisciplined armies is somewhat bizarre. It doesn't feel right when the Eldar, Marines or the Tau do it either. I think it may just be the fact that I'm still applying real-world mechanics to a game that has nearly all eras of warfare into a sci-fi setting. Kinda stupid on my part, but I really don't like it.

Conclusion

Well that was a lot off of my chest. I will still play the game. I'm not giving it up permanently. I'm taking a breather. No idea for how long either. I'll play a few games of WFB 7th afore WFB 8th comes out, but I'm not using my Lizzies. Brets and Ogres will be used as I enjoy them more. Warmachine, Blood Bowl will be my current gaming fix.

Regards,

English Pillock

p.s.

Again, I apologise for the NERD RAGE! I've vented to some of my friends, but I needed something a bit more permanent. It is amazing how cathartic typing something out is.

WAAC: Win At All Costs - Why loathe it... Part 1 of ?

Greetings,

This is going to be one of my rambling notions that end up on here. My first reason for doing this is the fact that the gaming group that I have always experienced have been what people may call 'soft'. By this I mean that we try to have fun for all of us who are playing, we offer advice or allow people to re-do something if they are having a bad game and have made a poor decision. I had never really met many gamers who really did this until I went to Uni (University of Wales, Lampeter if anyone is interested). I found the war gaming society after poking and prodding at the 'Freshers Fayre,' and meandered to it a bit after. I met a number of like-minded people there, but until I started to join in with 40K I never met any of the WAAC fraternity. My first army was Mercenary Kroot as well, so I was kinda letting myself in for a lot of hurt all things considered.

For all of you wondering why I chose Kroot as my first army there were a number of reasons. I do play with a very homicidal and sociopathic play style. Gun lines were for wusses and playing an army that was full of hyper-evolving cannibalistic space chickens was too cool for words in my eyes! After making 500pts of them and I set to learn how to play the game. 3rd Ed 40Kwas a really different animal to 5th Ed 40K. Lots of crazy stuff could happen compared to what goes on now.
So after a few weeks we did a day of 500pts 40K. 500pts, with few restrictions. Against some of the beginners I did well, but then I was hit by a WAAC player. He had a Wraithlord and a unit of Wraithguard in 500pts. I wasn't too bothered, but then he asked what weapons the Kroot had. I had Kroot rifles and a unit with sniper rifles. As soon as I had said that his Wraithlord went from standing proudly in the front lines of his army to cowering at the rear.

I played smilar people in my first year, but they slowly dropped out or left. In my second through fifth years at Lampeter the scene changed. We lost nearly all of the WAAC gamers. Those who were WAAC didn't get any games so they went elsewhere. After we got a rather large following we had a president who started a 4th Ed 40K and 6th Ed Fantasy tournament with the club at Aberystwyth University. We thought there would be a group of like-minded gamers there and that it would be a good weekend to chat and have lots of fun games. Talking online with some of the members I quickly found out that they were out for blood. Preferably ours! Even after telling the members of our club that we were gong to have to play differently we still went in as if we were playing someone at our club. Things didn't go well...
Most of the Lampeter guys went out in the first day or early in the second. We weren't bitter or anything, but it wasn't fun being curb-stomped by any means. Especially not by people who were using every rules lawyer trick that was available to pummel us.
We started playing what we had been doing before the tourney was announced. Paired 500pts games. We made 500pts lists with some restrictions and we used a simultaneous shooting declaration that was alien to the Aberystwyth gamers. What we did at the start of our shooting phase was declare which unit was going to fire at which unit. If more than one unit shoots at a single target and that target is destroyed a unit that has yet to fire can't do so that turn as it's weight of fire helped in destroying the unit even though no dice were rolled. Using this system we ended up having two basic tactics: 1) massed firepower to nuke a unit or 2) sporadic fire over the entire army.
We were getting more and more of the Aberystwyth gamers watching what we were doing as four separate armies were fighting in a combined arms style that they had no idea would even work. They looked at our lists and said that our combination of units wouldn't work in a tournament. We replied that if you look at what armies would have in the real world they would never have all of the biggest and shiniest toys in large enough quantities to do a WAAC army. Hopefully it made them think.

After they had gone and we had had time to think we mentioned about a similar tournament the following year. When they came their lists were softer and most of them were playing for fun rather than trying to pummel us into jelly.

I did ask them why they played such hard lists against us the prior tourney and they said that they did because they took part in the UK Nationals. If they didn't play like that they'd get nowhere. They made it sound more like work than something that you'd do for fun. If that was the case then tournaments weren't for me. I don't like that attitude and it's not a game mentality that I want to enjoy. It should be fun and not trying to beat the hell out of people with something that is obscene.

I still have more to vent, but I'm going to let this one stretch out a bit. I'd prefer not to have too much vitriol in a single post!

Regards,

English Pillock